Sauter Turrets Manual 0 5 480 510 Electrical
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I've got a customer with an Olofson PTH 2015 that has a bad problem. The turret repeats perfect either clockwise or counter clockwise but if you reverse it, it develops 5 thou backlash. I say backlash because it's the best way to describe it. Once it's shifted in the given direction positioning is again perfect tool to tool and including 360 degrees. I've replaced the seals in this one and checked the hirth coupling for any wear and all is fine. This is a 0.5.450.220 with star type live tool.
Live tool works fine as well. Just to try a few ideas all attaching bolts from the casting forward have been checked for length and replaced with new. The inner and outer fixed hirth and rotating were shimmed with no effect. I've spoken with Sauter about this and they have no ideas.
They recommend replacing it or sending it back to Germany. They don't think they can fix it in the states. Any ideas would be helpful, since I'm fresh out. Sorry to start off with such a hard question but if it were easy everybody'd be doing it. Unidirectionally it's fine.
Only when it reverses does the problem appear. This lathe has a 18i control without the M code to eliminate the issue. It can be programmed around but one slip in the program and it starts all over again. What doesn't help is they only use posted programs, so a custom post would be needed with a custom macro to go that route. It's indexing technologies that said replace it or send it to Germany. They have been great help, but this is a good one.
One other issue that makes it strange is the machine is very rigid regardless of all this. We all expected the turret to shift on load if it wasn't locked in right and it doesn't. I'm not sure of the rules and how to's here but I can post a schematic of this thing if that might help.
I do not get it, how can motor hold it without coupling. I would still move switch all the way back to make sure it engage coupling to the `bottom`. If motor holds it.it is going to overload when in working condition. My understanding is motor index it.than is locking in place meanwhile motor is off.so turret kind off adjust itself little bit.
When is locked.motor is off. I believe you either have something wrong with coupling, some damage.or you do not fully engage when locking. When turret is locked.did you try to move/push it with indicator on it to make sure it is rigid. I don't fully understand or believe what they said either. It was an idea that if the motor was slightly off position it would engage only one edge of the coupling, even under 800 pounds of pressure. As far as any shift when it's coupled the answer is no.
However the entire rotating center is part of the piston and under the same 800 psi load when it is in the lock mode, so the force needed to move it might be equall to what it would take to shift the tool disc itself. I'm also not a believer in a sliding gear set with no backlash that would be needed to make the motor hold it.
The switches are in a cam mount with around 2 mm travel. They sence a rod that tells if it shifts properly from live tool to turret.
This is actually telling if the gears remeshed as it shifts and not a fin signal for in position but an alarm state to stop all action but leave hydraulics on without any valve change. If this happens to hange up in any way it still wants to bottom out and the only way out of it is to change keep relays and find the problem. Typically a miss alignment or disc hangup from a tool issue. I was talking to Indexing tech yesterday and they told me that the motor holds it in place, not necessarily the hirth coupling. That's a RIOT.
Take out the hirth couplig then if it's 'really not needed' because it doesn't necessarily need to be there. Sounds like those people do NOT know what they are talking about. I am not familiar with the Sauter turrets, but ANY turret that has a coupling USES the coupling to locate AND lock it in position.simple engineering practice. The motor gets it close, weather it's a Servo motor, Hydraulic motor, gear motor, DC motor, AC motor, or even an Air motor. A servo motor will position it more accurately and potentially can get it there faster, but the coupling locks it in. Something is goofy, the coupling should be accurate and repeatable when it LOCKS DOWN. Keep looking for mechanical problems, maybe have to take it off the machine and take it apart to see the problem.
Well, a bit more info. With the hirth off the machine it's a hydraulic bath. To get everything on it to seal up hydraulicly even the tool disc has to be on it.
With the 3 pieces of the hirth set out on a granit table what you see makes you wish it was back on the machine. The inner and fixed outer coupling are ground to different heights and tapered out like a suns rays from the center. They also taper away from the mating hirth piece.
The mating piece fits inside the other two with a lip on the inside and outside so you can't see it when it's all together. The two that bolt to the casting and the turret disc have.20 difference in mounting heights. So it's hard to say if this is right or wrong. Or to know, if wrong, by how much. And some fun facts from I T. If it repeats in either direction they consider it fine and you are only looking at shipping, labor and a seal kit. Roughly 4000 to let you know you have a problem and it's not thier baby.
If it could be the machine then they can't help. They don't want the motor it's attached to. I'll be out on that machine next week and I'll take pictures and C4. I want to do that in the other order, set off the C4 and take pictures. I'm kidding, I'll see what I can do to fix it.
I was out on the PTH last friday and tried to get this thing to come up with everything but the turret disk attached. Live tool drive and all else to try and see what it was doing. No joy there, you have to have the disk on to get the positioning close enough to re initialize the drive. Took it back apart yesterday and started over. This has a star type live tool drive and I always use a live tool to start aligning this pig. Watching it really close it pulled the turret around as it engaged the live tool. The Hirth coupling won't pull it into place but the live tool will.
I know, how bizare. I can't use it for positioning but when I checked it with an indicator the live tool positioned alot better than a static. Just to try everything, I put 10000 in both 1851 and 1852, way to much for backlash feed and backlash rapid. It was broke when I got there, so why not.
It didn't like it and only did one turret move before alarming out. However it positioned almost a 1/2 inch off. Very cool, if I can f it up then I can fix it. It positions in rapid and when it shifts back to live tool mode it goes into feed mode.
By shifting the numbers around it positions long in rapid by -375 and then when it shifts gears it's 115 short. So backlash to get the gear shift right is one way and position to center the tool is the other. Either one by itself just messed it up or had no effect.
I would have never guessed it needed backlash in both directions, that just seems weird. Just wanted to share the outcome of this joyous machine for ya'll to enjoy. The -375 and 115 are parameter comp values equal to.375 and.115 degrees. They are word type parameters with no decimal point. The backlash isn't bad for as many times as this machine has been crashed. Yes it is gear driven but you can't see a thing with it all together and unless it's all together you can't index the turret.
I left out the part where indexing tech told me it sounded like a bad bearing in the motor. There were alot of times in this one that I can only imagine the look on my face as I tried to grasp some of the ideas put forward. I've seen the rapid and feed used in turret indexing before but this is the first time I've ever had to use them both and in opposite directions. In case anybody else gets into this in the future. The rapid is for shift position and can't be much more than what I've got it at or it won't mesh up. Then the feed comp is your actual positioning after gear shift if the rapid comp has it close enough to get that far. Hope that makes some kind of sence.
Actually none of this makes any sense, but. If backlash is the 'obvious' problem.why you wouldn't investigate until you found the SOURCE of the backlash.is beyond me. Is the customer paying you $100/hr by the hour and it makes more sense to not find the problem?? What you've described so far seems like a round-about approach to avoid the actual problem. If finding the backlash requires taking the turret totally apart, quit making excuses and DIVE IN or get someone else with more enthusiasm for fixing the problem to do it.
I've had the turret down to the casting on several occasions. I've suggested it go back to the factory so many times, I wouldn't waste my breath on that anymore. Oh and to date I'm the 4th service tech to 'dive into it'. All previous gave up. One was Niigata trained with 17 years experience, Me I'm Kitamura and Fanuc with 18. I've been into rotory glass scale, hydraulic, multiple encoder even maltese cross designed turrets. I've even fixed them after the entire disc was sheared off.
As far as pay for this job.this is a friend of my boss. I saw the invoice and to actually find the problem and get it running for the first time since they've owned it wouldn't cover gas money for the first trip.
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The backlash is from a gear train drive and there is a reason alot of German manufacturers are NOT using Sauter any longer. Fact is this one was designed odd and then crashed hard repeatedly. Then Lord knows what all done in efforts to fix it before I ever saw it.